[SDL] SDL 1.3 and rendering API state management

Bob Pendleton bob at pendleton.com
Thu Sep 7 06:47:37 PDT 2006

On Thu, 2006-09-07 at 01:11 +0200, Johannes Schmidt wrote:
> Dear Bob,
> sorry, shouldn't be an offense!

If no offense was meant then I will take no offense. Thank you for
noticing my reaction and taking action. I really do appreciate people,
such as you, who are sensitive to situations like this one. 

> I highly appreciate your contributions to SDL and the mailing list.
> Le Mercredi 6 Septembre 2006 23:01, Bob Pendleton a écrit :
> [...]
> > > > This way you can have any mixture 
> > > > of 2D and 3D on the screen that you want.
> [...]
> > > No, you are kidding, right?

Just for your information, in the culture I grew up in and live in, when
someone says they have put in a major amount of effort to accomplish
something you do not respond "No, you are kidding, right?". It is an
extreme insult. I have seen a comment like that one end life long
friendships and result in violent fights. 

> >
> > What part do you think I was kidding about. I have everything I
> > described working based on the SDL 1.2 code base.
> Just the part of mixing 2D and 3D.
> (I don't like out of context replies, so I snipped probably too less. I tried 
> to make it clearer).

We are going to have to disagree on this. I see no reason why I
shouldn't use 2D and 3D windows (panes if you please) in the same
application and I have yet to write a 3D application where I didn't need
to put 2D text and other features on top of 3D in the same pane. 

And, I was not kidding I have implement what I described. I love what it
lets you do with SDL. 

> All the other parts are great.
> [...]
> > > Honestly, the best way is to choose one graphics lib (OpenGL, whatever)
> > > and get your toolkit to use this for all of your drawings.
> >
> > That is not always the case. It makes perfect sense to implement a drop
> > down menu as a 2D window that is drawn on top of all other windows. Not
> > even hard to do using any modern windowing system.
> Perfectly true.
> It's just that I have seen too many apps starting with this concept, but 
> getting more and more cluttered with exceptions when extending the UI to 
> other parts of the screen.

Yes, when you do not have the tools to do it right you will find
yourself adding one kludge after the other to try to make it work, and
it never really does. To do GUIs right you need the concept of multiple
overlapping windows built into the tool kit. The windowing API should
handle windows and the graphics APIs should handle drawing.

> > > It took me just a few hours to get a basic OpenGL backend for Cairo,
> > > another 1.5h to get alpha blending and higher level stuff (patterns,
> > > gradients) right (and I haven't used cairo before).
> >
> > That is great, good for you. Does that have anything to do with SDL?
> Of course, if one reads just _this_ sentence, this seems to be very arrogant. 

I admit it isn't very polite, I was very pissed off when I wrote it.
But, I do not see what this point has to do with SDL?

> But keep cool, the only purpose is to say that the above (using only one 
> graphics target) may be/is easier, e.g. with Cairo (see below) than taking 
> care of mixing 2D and 3D. And this even if you don't know too much about 2D 
> rendering techniques (the given phrase), like, for example, me.

This whole thread has been about adding functionality like the cairo
renderer to SDL as an extension to the existing SDL 2D API. I'm sorry
you are inexperienced in this subject. I have been doing graphics off
and on, mostly on, for 30 years and I feel inexperienced. And that is no
bull, just keeping up in this field is a full time job. 

> > > You can strip off most of cairo to get a small vector graphics lib for
> > > every  
> > > graphics backend you want. OpenGL wasn't that hard, D3D should work as 
> > > well ...
> > > (and with Mozilla and GTK going for cairo, it should be possible to render 
> > > those components in your window ...)

Yes, if you are using GTK, not it you are using SDL. Those components
need to some porting effort if they are going to be useful in SDL. Are
you saying you have done that? What is the license on cairo? Can it be
integrated with SDL?

		Bob Pendleton

> Johannes
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